Author Jude Warne Gets "Lowdown" in New Book About Boz Scaggs

Scholarship meets soul in this exploration of one writer’s journey through the sounds of Scaggs.

Few writers can translate the sound of an album into a story with the grace and acuity of Jude Warne. Known for her deep dives into the lives of musical icons, Warne returns with her second music biography—this time turning her focus to the ever-evolving Boz Scaggs, titled Lowdown: The Music of Boz Scaggs (Chicago Review Press). Her previous book on the band America set a high bar for weaving together scholarly research with a vivid narrative, and Jude raises it here as well. In both works, Warne’s dedication to craft is evident—not only in her encyclopedic knowledge but in the way she animates her subjects, turning mere musical timelines into journeys.

This conversation is not just about Boz Scaggs—though fans of his smooth soul, blues, and rock-fused catalog will find plenty to savor. It’s about the art of translating music into words, a task that Jude Warne accomplishes with rare skill. Her writing is at once meticulous and alive. She captures the essence of artists without reducing them to caricatures or over-polishing their mythos. As someone who had the joy of being reviewed by Warne—her piece about my album The Show was among the most insightful reflections I’ve read on my work—I can testify to her ability to listen deeply and render that listening into language.

In the following interview, we explore Warne’s process, her fascination with Scaggs’ shifting career, and what it means to be a writer about music rather than a musician. Her reflections remind us that while songs speak to the soul, great writing about music helps us understand why. Whether you're a Boz Scaggs devotee or just discovering his work now, Jude Warne will give you a new way to hear him—and maybe, a new way to think about how music becomes memory.

Evan Toth: Well, Jude, welcome to the program. I'm so excited to talk to you about Lowdown: The Music of Boz Scaggs. This is your second book!

Jude Warne: Yeah, second music book, yes.

ezt: He's not the only music person that you've written about. Of course, you've written shorter pieces, but this is your second full length book. And really, thanks for sharing it with me and thanks for being with me to talk about it today.

jw: Thanks so much. I'm glad to be here and glad to be able to talk about it.

ezt: You're very welcome. So I guess the place to start is how did you sort of land on Boz Scaggs? I suppose as a writer you must look at books that are available and things that people have written. And there's been so much written about pop culture in the last 40, 50 years that almost everybody has something written about them. But I'm sure you're looking at the horizon and saying who's really deserving of a full length story to be told about them and maybe Boz Scaggs was one of those guys. So tell everybody, how did we kind of find Boz Scaggs?

jw: Yes, that's exactly right. I do, because I'm a reader myself as well and I read a lot of music books and I always keep a list in the back of my mind what I would like to read about that I haven't come across yet. And that was definitely one of those. Boz was one of those artists, of course. So I got excited when I started developing my own ideas about his work, which had been developing in my mind's background as a listener for a very long time, because I've been a fan of his work. And I love, obviously, the Silk Degrees era and that trilogy of albums that came out around that time with that dance sound. And that was his biggest commercial success as well, that album. But I also loved his early work with the Steve Miller Band. So I got excited thinking about the possibility of getting to discuss that era and the hippie scene a bit in the 60s in California. There, when he was getting started out. And Steve Miller, who was working, I love also, and I get to trace that trajectory. So I'm glad it worked out.

ezt: And since you're here, I decided to go through some of the stuff behind me. And I really only have three albums. I have Silk Degrees, of course, which everybody's got to have a copy of this. And what an interesting cover, too, because he's there and then he disappears, but the hand still remains. The hand is longingly waiting for him there at that, wherever he is, in front of, in Santa Monica or somewhere over there, I don't know.

jw: Yes, I love the anticipatory nature of that photograph. And there's a sexiness to it. And I think the images capture the sleek, lush sounds that you end up hearing on the record. So I love the matching of that image with the songs. And I got to interview the photographer who took those shots, Moshe Brakha, who's a successful artist in his own right. But that was one of the earliest things he did when he was younger that got notoriety.

ezt: And the follow-up is, he's with his ice likeness there, the melting, three melting Scaggs there behind him. And then he's alone on the back. He's alone again. He's disappeared again to only leave his, we could just do a whole hour on this.

jw: Just on the meaning behind the images. Yes, I love that record so much. It is a unique cover photo choice, but I love that it carries the sonic trajectory that started on Silk Degrees. And I think that was everyone's intention, too, who was working on the record bosses. Of course, the record company is wanting to maintain that massive success. And I think it succeeds there in terms of fitting in with the previous record. But there's something I like even more about the songs on that album. I think it just has more of a developed, concentrated sound where Silk Degrees seemed a bit more exploratory because while I was working with David Page, who co-wrote most of the record, they were kind of just exploring together and getting to know each other in terms of working together in that way. And by the time this next album came along, it was more just finely tuned. But I like that.

ezt: And I think this is the next album, right? Middle Man, was that followed? It was 76, 77, and this was a couple years later. This was 1980.

jw: Yes, I like to view those albums as a trilogy that kind of speak to one another and definitely help characterize that time in pop culture, late 70s going into the 80s, and the sleekness that was coming more into records, having them sound much more produced, a lot of them anyway, and keeping the image of the elegance that Boz's character musical persona had established. And then that's a wonderful record, too. And Steve Lukather from Toto is on to some great solos on that record, as he did on the previous one as well. But that stands out to me.

ezt: Yeah, and now this was really his last album for quite a while, right? This was sort of 1980, and then he sort of took a break. He stepped away a little bit after the fame that he found here in the mid-70s...

jw: Yes, it was an interesting choice, too, because I feel some artists might have just been egged on by all the success he had established and just keep fine-tuning the machine so that it became even more of this somewhat predictable organism. But Boz, as I articulate in the book in regards to different eras he went through, I think he's been very successful at being true to himself as an artist and following his own musical impetus. And I think that at that time he really wanted to get away and just get back into himself and reassess his artistic goals and stuff rather than just keep the machine going. So it was a unique choice, but I think it served him well personally, ultimately.

ezt: And it's interesting, you mentioned Steve Lukather and you had a lot of the Toto folks in here and people might be surprised to learn what, Jude?

jw: Yes, so Toto first really got together working with Boz on that Silk Degrees record. Several of them are on that album, and then a couple of them ended up joining the tour from that album. So almost all the Toto players of the original lineup worked with Boz at some point, and David Page, of course, co-wrote Silk Degrees, and he's the main songwriter of Toto. But it was an exciting time for them, as I understood it just, they were young and coming up and all pretty much very successful studio players who had worked with many different artists, but they were really intent on forming their own group. And I think it worked out well for them and for listeners. But I did get to interview, as I mentioned, David Paich, Steve Lukather, David Hungate, and Steve Porcaro, all of whom had worked with Boz. I like getting to weave some of their voices in there, especially at that exciting period, the Silk Degrees tour being put together.

ezt: Yeah, so it's safe to say that if it weren't for Boz Scaggs, we wouldn't know anything about the rains down in Africa.

jw: Yes, I like, that's very eloquently put. Yes, I support that statement. There's a quote from Lukather too in the book, I think, that aligns with that idea, just about: no Boz, no Toto, that's how it is.

ezt: And you could argue too, Toto was very involved in Michael Jackson's studio recordings as well. I think particularly on Thriller. So really he put these guys together. They made a great sound in '76 and for the next 10 years, they had quite a run as their own group, as Toto, and also as studio musicians. So maybe Boz is to thank for all that stuff.

jw: I'd like to think so. Yes, he had such a knack for hooking up with the right musicians for him and his sound. Even if he didn't know ahead of time, I think he had a good instinct about who, whose musicality he identified with most at different parts in his career. Like working with Steve Jordan later on, I mean, the recent trilogy about blues albums that he's done in the last several years, that kind of partnership. And I think as it's expressed in the book, he really works well with others, like in Silk Degrees working with David Page. I think he's got some of his best work.

ezt: The last time we spoke, we were talking about your book about America. And how was this kind of different? What did you learn from that process that you brought to this book? What did you do differently? Was it not necessarily easier? Or maybe it was, maybe it was a little easier, maybe you had a template in place, or maybe it was a little more difficult. Can you sort of share for the audience a little bit about what the different experiences were like writing these two books?

jw: Sure. Well, there was a similarity, as you mentioned, in that my favorite thing to do as a writer is to do kind of deep dives into albums, album by album, and really analyze, in all my opinion, of course, but analyzing the songs and weaving them in with other stories behind some of the recordings and stuff. And I really do every song on every album, pretty much every studio record. So I brought that same approach to this book on Boz. And there were some similarities in terms of the California sound or era that kind of, chronologically anyway, the two artists kind of crossed paths there. And I got to talk a bit about that, which I love that time in music history. Differently, I think I enjoyed getting to write about a solo artist. So even though he did work with all these collaborators, he really had a sonic vision that he himself had identified. And I remember a lot of what I ended up discussing in America at different points in their story was about how the three original players worked together when Dan Peek left, and the partnership that still stands today between Dewey Bunnelll and Gerry Beckley. So that was different that way, but each had its own interesting adventure for me.

The author of this piece talking about Jude's first book about America.

ezt: Recently, there was this documentary about Yacht Rock, which I didn't see. And as I understand it, there's a little tale there that the filmmakers reached out to Donald Fagan from Steely Dan and said, hey, we want to do this movie about Yacht Rock. And he said, I think there was an expletive involved and hung up the phone. We might categorize our pals from America in there as well. But I love what would be called Yacht Rock. And I mean, we all want to be careful to stereotype everything because everything gets boxed in. And these things can operate as different things. You can enjoy music that's, maybe someone thinks Yacht Rock, but it doesn't mean it's a bad song. So I love that sound. Where do you think Boz stands in that? Now, Boz is interesting because he's really experimented with a lot of different genres throughout his career. And he really did change. You know, his whole career isn't really that sound. But where do you think he stands with that? And how do you feel about that term? And what do you think Boz would say to us if he knew we were talking about Yacht Rock here?

jw: I don't know how he'd feel about it. I think most artists tend to not love it immediately. Anyway, perhaps as that documentary expressed, some of them have grown to love it because it celebrates a lot of the work they did. And I personally find it's very, it's putting all of these somewhat complex artists into a box. Although sonically, I understand how they're all kind of related. So I enjoyed the documentary. But yes, Boz is interesting because the, what we were talking about before, the trilogy of albums that started with Silk Degrees in the mid to late 70s, and then Down to the Left and Middle Man have more of that Yacht Rock sound. And it fits the era, because that was the late 70s and early 80s, which Yacht Rock, you know, that was one of its most dominant time, I guess, into the 80s. But Boz too, I associate so much with his blues, the love for blues music that he started out with as a little kid. And he always maintained that throughout his career. So even when he went through that Silk Degrees era and that successful era, he always had the love of blues running underneath. And he always came back to that, especially in the 90s and 2000s and forward. If you look at certain albums, he did a lot of blues covers and that grittier blues guitar forward sound. So that's where I see him separate from that other viewpoint.

ezt: Yeah, I know what you mean. You know, Yacht Rock is funny. The term is funny because it does sound a little summative, but at the same time, man, when you hear a song that makes you feel like you're drinking a margarita at a beach bar somewhere, it hits the spot. It's a weird, funny thing how that works like that.

jw: I know, it's very feel-good music to me. And yes, that's, when I first started listening to Boz a bunch of years ago, I started with the Silk Degrees record and I kind of associated that with that feeling too. Like it was one of my feel-good albums that I would put on. And the same thing with America's Greatest Hits, which is what I started out with when I was on the America trip. But I associate it with that too, even separately from music history and stuff. It has that pleasing sound.

ezt: It's interesting that you mentioned a little bit his early days and a lot of folks may not know about his connection with Steve Miller at all. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that early time if you, I don't want to give anything up from the book, but you know, the early California days and kind of hooking up with him. And as I understand it, he kind of came back to Steve Miller and it kind of didn't quite work out again. So what do you, what did you kind of uncover there with the relationship between those two musicians?

jw: Yes, I'm glad you brought that up. That's one of my favorites, musical partnerships. Steve Miller with Boz Scaggs, just because it was a bit complicated and it really did start when they were young in school. I believe it was around high school age. They were at the same prep school in Dallas, St. Mark's. Very young, very young. I think they gravitated toward each other because of that mutual love of Texas blues, guitar, and then the rock and roll of the day that was going on. So they were attracted to one another friendship wise and musically, but I think they also had two very strong individual intentions with their own musical aspirations, which all the best artists do. So I think ultimately it wasn't the best pairing long-term for a group dynamic, as I explored in the analysis of the first two Steve Miller band studio albums that Boz was on. And Steve invited him to join, of course. And it worked well for a time, I think, but it wasn't meant to be long-term. But some of my favorite Steve Miller band songs are on those two records. And Boz’s contributions really stand out. Sonically, you can kind of hear that he's destined for solo greatness, apart from the band dynamic.

ezt: It's interesting too, because knowing, you learn about these artists as you grow up and you're listening to people on the radio and maybe you don't know exactly what's going on with them and you're young and you're sort of just putting this stuff together. But when I first learned about Boz Scaggs as an individual performer, I didn't imagine him playing any instruments. I just imagined him as a vocalist. So to think about how intense his musical relationship was with Steve Miller, who's someone I really associate with the guitar, I was a little surprised. It's a little surprising to me to think of him as an instrumentalist too.

jw: I know what you mean I think, and it's funny, I believe I mentioned in the book, but later on, after the Steve Miller Band years, Boz really made a conscious decision, I think, to focus most on his voice, to identify most as a vocalist. And I think he's such an incredible singer and it's apparent, of course, on all of his work, but later on in the 2000s, he did two covers albums of jazz classic standards, you know, the American Songbook stuff. And I feel like his sensitivity to vocal interpretation is so clear on that end of it. But I know what you mean about Boz and the guitar, but he really is this incredible guitarist and I think especially rhythm guitar. And that worked well in the Steve Miller band, I think, for a time anyway, that combination of Steve and Boz, but it is interesting.

ezt: Can you tell our listeners a little bit about his very early years? He ended up in Sweden. So it's funny, as a record collector, I look like - well - what should I get or what should I buy? Or, maybe I'll give myself excuses to buy stuff if I'm having a conversation like this with you, Jude. I say, oh, maybe I better get all of Boz, I better make sure I have everything that I need. And I did look up his first album from 1966, I want to say?

jw: ‘65, I don't know if you checked that, but around then, yes.

ezt: And of course it's called Boz and it was only released in Sweden and it would cost me $200 to get a copy of that. So it's a very valuable album. But can you tell us a little bit about how he began that solo career of his, how he ended up in Europe becoming his own person?

jw: Yes. So at that time in the mid 60s, Boz had done a lot of traveling. He, I believe he loved the Kerouac literature of the 50s and 60s and the Dharma Bums and the concept of being this nomadic kind of artistic person. And so he gravitated through some different countries in Europe, I believe. But he did spend a lot of time in Sweden and did busking and stuff on the street as a musician. But he ended up recording that album kind of on a whim because he was asked in Sweden and he did it in a very short amount of time. And most of its all covers, I think, there's some Bob Dylan covers on there. It's an interesting assortment, especially if you know his later work of songs. And it's really just him and his guitar. And it's very intense. And it's an interesting listen, again, very different from his later stuff. But it went out of print fairly quickly, I believe. And then didn't really, a lot of people ended up considering his next album, the Basquiat's record, which he made in the States several years later with Jan Wenner, producing his first debut album, even though he had recorded that other one of course.

ezt: I was talking last week with someone about this idea of artist development. Now, Boz Scaggs is a guy who, I mean, before Silk Degrees hit in '76, I think he probably released five albums or something that didn't really take on the charts, incrementally increasing with each release. But in the 70s, you had groups like Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen, who were able to release all of these albums and build an audience and build a catalog. But in the 21st century, you can't imagine a record label allowing an artist to have four or five flops before they finally hit. So Boz, I think kind of checks off that box. He's one of those guys that really benefited from artist development.

jw: Yes, and I think he had enough success the whole time to keep everyone happy enough. Everyone, I mean, the record company and fans and audiences coming to see him and stuff. But yes, he hadn't reached that crazy level of success until later, later on with the Silk Degrees album. And I mentioned it in the book, but he kind of approached that recording process initially as just making another record, nothing special about this one, other than what's special about any record, but wouldn't necessarily think it was going to be what it became success-wise.

ezt: A true artist. He's just doing what he does. And if it hits, it hits. And I guess that sort of explains his career post-1980, where he just said, I'm not really feeling it. I'm not feeling it.

jw: Yeah, yes, I think that sums up the vibe at the time and why he retreated for a while. And I don't think he intended it to be as long as it was. I think he wanted to take a break of some kind that ended up being eight or so years. But when he came back, he was ready to record again and work again. And he stayed true to himself. If you listen to those 80s, late 80s records and some change from the early 90s as well, it still sounds like him. He never really changes his persona that way. Although he does experimental different sounds and vibes and stuff. I like that Some Change record a lot. It's an interesting one.

ezt: And, you know, in your research and what you know about him, he seems like a fairly reclusive. I don't want to call him like a recluse, but as far as stars are concerned and fame is concerned, he's not a guy that really courts fame and being out in the public eye all the time. He definitely has a mysterious streak to him. I don't know if he's of the level of like Prince or something like that, but what did you sort of uncover about that, his relationship with the public in your reading and writing?

jw: Yes, well, I interpreted it to be that same sort of way. Yeah, reclusive is probably the best word, although like you pointed out, recluse, but just from what I read and studied about his character in different articles and reviews, interviews in different areas, he seems like a very shy, close to himself kind of guy. And I think that sensitivity that, I think that's what that conveys is so evident in a lot of his musical work, a lot of understanding to the nuances of romantic relationships and that kind of special quality that makes the work so good. But yes, I think he didn't necessarily like love being out in the limelight and showing his whole persona, he's definitely more mysterious.

ezt: Yeah, a little mysterious guy. You know, there are a lot of interesting historical touch-points, which I'm sure you know about, but that maybe listeners to this chat would appreciate. He was performing at Avery Fisher Hall during the great New York City blackout of 1970. What was it? I don't even know what it was.

jw: Six or seven.

ezt: He was there and that must've been an awkward moment. He was like, hey, everybody, just come back another day. That's a big weird moment.

jw: It is, that he happened to be in New York. I discussed that in the book a little bit. I got to speak with Steve Porcaro about that. He was there that night touring with him and he said how bizarre it was where he was one of the first artists to realize what was going on because he was working on the synthesizers and the power was very wonky right away. And then all the lights went out and Boz kind of made an announcement to the crowd once they found out what was going on and then Steve said it turned into this very big party in the audience, just people enjoying, I guess, I don't know, the bizarreness of the moment.

ezt: They're lucky it didn't turn into a riot or something. Also, I love this fact about his music was sort of being used as the dance music in Saturday Night Fever before the Bee Gees came on board the film. I guess it was lowdown that John Travolta used to put together a lot of his moves and stuff like that.

jw: I believe he was a fan at the time and that was one of the songs that people were going to go dancing to and listening to. I think that was one of the options on the table. But something with Boz's management, I think, or advisors, they ended up using some of Boz's music for Looking for Mr. Goodbar, although the music in Saturday Night Fever sounds wonderful and the Bee Gees material works well.

ezt: That became iconic in its own way, for sure. Also, in the book, you've got a lot, listen, Jude, my favorite books are the books that have pictures in them. I like a good book with pictures. That's my reading level, I like a lot of good pictures. But tell me a little bit about compiling some of the photographs that you do have in here, some really great ones, and they do certainly go to push the narrative of your story forward. But what's it like getting that stuff together and getting it approved? And maybe you could just share with people that process.

jw: Sure, well, I'm not a huge fan of the whole photographs parts of the book experience. I remembered, I hadn't thought about it since working on the America book and then working on the photographs for this again. I was like, all right, this is the photographs, which I love as a consumer reader, but just the logistics that go into it can get so complicated sometimes. But in this case, I was so fortunate, Steve Porcaro had kept all these original Polaroids he had from the Silk Degrees tour that hadn't really been seen too often anyway elsewhere, maybe not at all in terms of print. And we got to use a bunch of those and you really see Luke there and Jeff Porcaro, Steve Porcaro, all very young and having a great time on that tour. And I like the kind of raw, almost famous elements of just seeing these tour Polaroids. It feels very up-to-time to me. So I was glad to be able to include those. And we also got some from David Hungate from that year. I think it's some memorabilia stuff, concert programs. And I think one of my dad's programs is in there too. So I thought it was cool.

ezt: I'm just seeing it right now, the Fillmore East program cover from 1971, which maybe I'm breaking some copyright rules putting it on the video here. But yes, courtesy of Steven and Mary Jane Warne.

jw: Yes, my dad saved every Fillmore program he had and he went to a lot of the shows at that time in the late 60s so they're in very good condition, which is nice that I was able to share that in this case.

ezt: Good, take care of those. Don't let them, I'm sure you will, you'll archive them appropriately.

jw: I'd like to.

ezt: We're talking about artist development and things like that. What do you think, if an artist like Boz Skaggs came around today in the 21st century, would anybody get it? Would anybody understand what was going on? Would he be able to crack through? Is that a sound that would work now? His sound still reverberates on radio that plays either an eclectic blend or a retro blend so his music is still within the universe here. But what do you think if it were someone like him coming along as a newbie on the scene?

jw: It's an interesting question to consider. I think a lot of what Boz came out with during the eras he was making these records, especially in the 70s, a lot of the sound was influenced by the collective sound at the time and the studio players that were there and stuff. So that shaped that sound. If he were to go about doing something now, I don't know if he would, I guess he wouldn't necessarily gravitate toward those same sounds. It might be more reflective of what's going on today musically, but that's even like that broad statement of there's so much going on musically. Like everything in the world, I feel like there's so many options for any kind of music you could think of. And the internet provides access of a lot of artists to share their work, especially younger people who are not, haven't recorded anything yet necessarily, but there's so much of that. So to answer it simply, I don't know. I like to think that his character would always shine through his true to himself-ness that he has. So the output might be different, but the same integrity would still be there, I think.

ezt: Back to his mysterious nature, how did that sort of impact you as a researcher and a writer? Clearly you managed to get enough information about him to write a whole book about him, but were there challenges there? Was there some kind of access that you would have liked to have had that maybe was difficult? Or how did you sort of get around that part of his personality and his legacy?

jw: Well, my wish was for him to be involved in this book and to interview him, however, many times he was available and as with my America book, I worked very closely with the artist in that one.

ezt: And you worked with him on that, yeah.

jw: And it was authorized. So that's always my intention starting out, but it didn't quite work out that way. I received a polite decline from his management, but I wasn't really relying on that. While I was developing this, I was open to different possibilities and options, especially knowing his reclusive nature and that he didn't have any books out yet. So I didn't feel like I had to work around it because as I've mentioned, my favorite approach is to go deep diving into the records. And it's really more about the music and not so much about the artist's personal lives in general, I'm not that interested in that. While it does sometimes directly affect the work that needs to be discussed, I feel like it didn't deter my process at all, which was nice for me.

Some music writers don't even interview their subjects too much anyway. I think Greil Marcus, who's one of my favorite music writers and Mystery Train is my favorite music book. So I don't think he does too many artist interviews for his books, maybe not. So it kind of allows the writer to, you can totally riff on any creative idea you come across while listening to the music and take it down any direction. So it was more freeing that way, I enjoy that. And I felt confident getting to speak to some people who had worked with him. I felt like I got to get the vibe of what it was like to be there working with him from a couple of different areas, like the Toto guys I mentioned. And I got to speak with Jim Peterman from the original Steve Miller Band, line up years. So that was very clarifying for me, the feel of the time and the band at that time. And Tracy Nelson, the blues singer, she also knew Boz in the early days. So I felt satisfied creatively that way.

ezt: And of course, when you begin a journey of research like this about anyone or anything, you no doubt come along on some surprises and some things that you didn't expect to uncover. Was there anything in this journey that was particularly surprising to you? Or did your narrative kind of shift or change direction at any point once you decided to view something through a different lens or anything like that?

jw: I don't know if I was ever too surprised by anything I came across. I think I was more just excited or impressed by the musical character that I picked up on in different albums and eras from listening to Boz's stuff kind of proved true. The more I deep dove into all the other records, because some of those middle era records, like Come on Home, I think that was in the 90s, early 90s perhaps (1997). I hadn't listened to that many times, maybe a couple, and then writing about it, I gave it more attention and that kind of brought into my view, I guess. And it was confirmed what I knew to be true about Boz's early blues influence by really studying every song he ever covered or worked on it that was very apparent, just even by the numbers, which was exciting and just his true to himself-ness was very much there. And just hearing different people speaking about working with him and this kind of positive attitude they all came away with by doing that was nice to hear.

The book's author, Jude Warne

ezt: Well, what else do you think is fun to share with an audience about just this process of putting a book together and mostly looking back on it at a time like now where you're talking to me, it's this thing now, you're working on it, you're putting things together, you're organizing, and now it's done. And now you can't really go back and change. I suppose you could, but you'll have a revised version in 20 years. But how do you feel about the book now having completed it and looking back on it? And of course, you'll be doing more talking about it as you are with me.

jw: Yes, well, I feel proud about the work. And it is funny, the separation of just time-wise having finished the manuscript pretty much last year and then editing it a lot, of course, after that. But yeah, I just feel a bit far away at that point talking about it now. I had to revisit it more, the writing that I had already done but I'm proud of the different analysis just from a writer nerd standpoint some of the different points I get into in the book. And yes, it just makes me encouraged, I guess, to go further and write more about artists that I like like this and give some writerly attention or critical attention to artists that maybe are a bit under-discussed, not necessarily in reviews from their heyday, but now. So I wanted to pay homage to Boz's work that way too.

ezt: And if someone wanted to begin writing a book about someone right now, and they're saying: I want to do this thing, and people have these ideas about writing a book, but the first step is always the hardest, what advice would you give to someone having two books under your belt at this point? What would you say to someone who is really interested in getting into writing about a figure like this in entertainment or in the public eye?

jw: Well, I would suggest doing as much listening as the person could at first as possible because that's really where I come up and came up with all of my main recurring ideas about Boz or about any artists in a long form like this. And if you know the work and can relate to the work, I think that comes across in the writing. So I would encourage a lot of that time, you know, deep dive listening that I do. And having a good outline always helps. I always stick to that. I never feel you can have a day or a moment where you feel a bit stranded or not quite sure where you want to take it next, but having the outline and knowing what I wanted to discuss in each chapter ahead of time made me feel more confident. In a way, it's already done on some planet. In the future, it's there, you just have to carry it out.

ezt: Follow the map, just follow the map.

jw: Yes.

ezt: And I guess Boz Skaggs is probably not going to be in your playlist for the next year or so.

jw: Yeah, you know, I'm gonna need a sonic break after listening to everything ever for a lot of time, but I think I'll always come back in there because some of my favorite music ever happens to be some of his songs. So that's a good thing.

ezt: Well, good, and I'd love for you to tell us who you're going to work on next, but I know that's top secret information, confidential, but I'm very curious. I'm sure you've already got an idea or two or maybe three of people that you'd like to write about. And I can't wait to find out who those people are.

jw: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. And yes, I look forward to announcing that too.

ezt: Well, thanks so much, Jude. I really appreciate it. And it's a kudos to you, by the way, in a world of music journalism, just being someone who's actually writing books about these people and really doing a lot of hard work here. And it's very admirable. I have a lot of faith in you and I really look forward to hearing what you do next.

jw: Thank you so much. I do appreciate that. Yes, it's a bit of a unique path as a music writer, but this is how it's happened and I'm seeing it through as much as I get. So it's fine.

ezt: Good, congratulations again. Thank you.

jw: Thank you so much.